Showing posts with label interview. Show all posts
Showing posts with label interview. Show all posts

Wednesday, July 31, 2024


Dr. Carole Lieberman, AKA The Terrorist Therapist®, has provided expert advice to readers of my parenting columns since 2016. In all that time, we never met face to face, and I never told her where I lived. It was all by email.

Not long after October 7, however, I decided to tell Dr. Carole that I live in Israel and was worried about my grandchildren, whose home had taken a hit from a rocket on the first day of the war. I even sent her a photo of rockets flying over my son’s home in Netivot in southern Israel.



I guess I just felt a need to connect. Dr. Lieberman’s gig was, after all, terror, and my grandkids had been directly affected. Plus, my Jewdar told me Dr. Carole was a safe place to confide the reality of my life—where I actually live—after working with her remotely all these years.

Carole was quick to offer help. She took my address and told me that her book, Lions and Tigers and Terrorists, Oh My! How to Protect Your Child in a Time of Terror, was on its way to me here in Israel. Now that she knew where I lived, however, Carole wondered if there was something I could do for her.

Lions and Tigers and Terrorists, Oh My! How to Protect Your Child in a Time of Terror (photo: book cover, by permission) 

Dr. Carole Lieberman wanted to find an organization to work with to bring her book and her expertise in terror to Israel to help children and families affected by the war. I was so touched by Dr. Lieberman’s desire to help us—help Israel—in our time of need, and was thankfully able to put her in touch with the right people.

Carole’s book arrived some time later, and I was immediately impressed that it was a beautiful book, bright, colorful, and printed on quality stock—something you don’t often see these days. Then too, the book was well written—frank and filled with good, solid, honest advice. I wanted to review the book for this column. But I wasn’t sure that would be a good move for Carole Lieberman.

I put it to Carole straight: "I want to interview you and review your book, but EOZ is right wing on Israel. Would the politics of this blog space harm you by association? I don't want to negatively impact your book sales."

I sent her some samples of past interviews.

Carole responded, “You don’t have to worry about me being offended by anything right-wing. I am a Trumper all the way. If he doesn’t win it will be a disaster for America and Israel.”

The things you find out about a person after kinda sorta knowing them for almost a decade . . .

***
Varda Epstein: What made you decide to place a focus on terror and children in your professional life? Did you have a mentor who influenced your work—or a body of literature to guide your way? It really seems as if you pioneered this work, at least in the United States.

Carole Lieberman: I’m a born and bred New Yorker, so when 9/11 happened, it broke my heart because, although I had moved to California, my heart was still in New York – and so was my daughter. She gave me a minute-by-minute description of what was happening – from the gray smoke that drifted all the way from lower Manhattan’s World Trade Center-Twin Towers to the upper tip of Manhattan where she was attending Barnard College. While the tragedy was happening, I was overcome by a strong sense, a premonition perhaps, that terrorism was going to be the worst threat that the world would have to cope with and I asked myself, ‘What can I do – as a psychiatrist, author, talking head in the media - to help?’ From this, I formed the concept of devoting myself to work as The Terrorist Therapist® and have continued doing this to this day. I did not really know much about terrorism when I began, but I quickly began attending conferences and have been researching and studying it ever since.

My work has evolved quite a bit since 9/11 and taken me on a journey of a lifetime. I am honored to do this work because no one else has ventured this deeply into helping people and warning them about terrorists’ jihadi goals – especially not since America has become so ‘woke’ and some consider it offensive to tell it like it is – by calling ISIS, Al Qaeda and other terrorist groups “terrorists.”

I started by creating an audio-video program that was played on airlines’ inflight entertainment to relax passengers who had become nervous after the four planes attacked America on 9/11. I used guided imagery and called it “Shrink on Board.”

Since then, in addition to working 1 on 1 with people, I’ve written two books on terrorism; host a podcast called “The Terrorist Therapist Show;” do media interviews; and speaking engagements. I also created a music video that I play on a mobile billboard going around Manhattan and Washington D.C. each 9/11 anniversary, to remind people about the tragedy and terrorism in general; how to talk to kids about it; psychological symptoms of Post-Traumatic Stress Disorder; how terrorists are determined to create global jihad; and how those who forget history are doomed to repeat it.

Dr. Carole's mobile billboard

Varda Epstein: You’re based in California. How many children are you currently working with who have experienced terror, either firsthand or second hand? Can you give us some idea of what these children have gone through and how it affects them? What is the age range of the children you work with?

Carole Lieberman: As a psychiatrist, I do therapy with children, teens and adults in California and New York – since I am licensed in both states. I’ve also helped families in London and Paris, in regard to the trauma they feel from their terror attacks. I’ve lived in these cities, so it was especially heartbreaking to see the damage terrorists had done. London’s “9/11” was their 2005 attacks on the Tube and on one of their iconic double-decker buses. My first book about terrorism, Coping with Terrorism: Dreams Interrupted, was published by a London publisher in 2006, as the 1st anniversary edition of 7/7. I spent two weeks in London, when the book came out and helped families, especially those who had lost loved ones in this attack, to heal. When my second book about terrorism, Lions and Tigers and Terrorists, Oh My! How to Protect Your Child in a Time of Terror, won an award from the London Book Festival, I returned to London and went to Manchester as well, because there had been a terror attack on the concert hall there. I met with people in a floating bookstore on the Thames; libraries; cafés; and at Anna Freud’s Hampstead Clinic, where I had studied years ago. I helped families process the increasing threat of terrorism and found that children were especially hungry for an opportunity to talk about their feelings and to hear the truth instead of being told not to worry about it. Grownups were surprised at their questions: how much they knew, how many misconceptions they had, and – how eagerly they expressed their feelings, despite the usual British stiff-upper lip.

Paris has suffered several terror attacks. Their ‘9/11’ was the 2015 attack on Le Stade soccer stadium, restaurants, bars, and Le Bataclan concert venue. When Lions and Tigers and Terrorists won the Paris Book Festival, it was another opportunity for me to help, since I spoke French. I went to a concert at the Bataclan to try to better understand what it was like for the audience when they were attacked. It was chilling to see that they were easy prey for the terrorists because it was like ‘shooting fish in a barrel.’ I met with people at the Café Bataclan who were clearly still traumatized. I met with teachers at a school; a parents’ group; librarians; and doctors at the American Hospital in Paris, encouraging them to express their feelings about terrorism. I also met with a group of writers at Shakespeare and Company, the iconic French bookstore on the Left Bank. It was fascinating and rewarding to talk with so many different people about the impact of terrorism on their lives. Parisians are very proud of their beautiful ‘City of Light,’ so they were pained, not only by the deaths and injuries, but by the destruction of their surroundings.

As the years since 9/11 have passed, many Americans who weren’t living near the sites of the attacks in New York City, Washington D.C., or Pennsylvania have pushed their memories of that day into their unconscious mind or gone into denial. So, patients in America don’t necessarily say that 9/11 is the reason they’re coming into therapy. Yet, the problems they have – depression, anxiety, Post-Traumatic Stress Disorder, and so on – have a connection to 9/11. It is always fascinating to see how that date coincided with something significant in their lives, in addition to the attack.

Depending upon the age of the children, teens and young adults who I work with currently, they either weren’t born yet by 9/11, or were children during that time and in the aftermath. What has been most striking and very worrisome is the powerful and lasting impact of terror attacks. Even if the person wasn’t alive at the time of the attack, but they were raised by parents who were alive then, they absorb the “terror” from their parents by osmosis. In other words, the trauma that the parents experienced gets inadvertently communicated to their children and makes them feel fearful of the outside world; feel more amenable to having “Big Brother” take care of them; and feel less ambitious because they have a sense of uncertainty and impending doom. These effects can be mitigated by parents and families who recognize these dangers and actively seek to soothe and counteract them.


Speaking at Route 91 Survivors (Las Vegas shooting) on recovering from trauma

Varda Epstein: Tell us something about your book, Lions and Tigers and Terrorists, Oh My! How is it structured—is it for parents or for children? Can you talk about the use of The Wizard of Oz as a frame of reference, or metaphor for terror?

Carole Lieberman: My book, Lions and Tigers and Terrorists, Oh My! How to Protect Your Child in a Time of Terror, was written to help grownups talk to their kids about terrorism and to help kids learn the truth about terrorism without feeling terrified.

The first half of the book, for parents and teachers, answers kids’ most common questions (including the ones they don’t ask aloud); provides guidelines for how to make kids become more resilient; and how to process the experience of terrorism so that it leaves the least scars. Too many grownups are afraid to talk to their kids about it because they say they, “don’t want to scare them.” But they don’t realize that kids have seen and heard so much about terrorism that already scares them because they don’t understand it. They get snippets of news and may even have seen an attack at their front door. Their friends tell them stories, too, and it all becomes a muddle of confusion. Kids can handle a lot if grownups explain it to them calmly and provide a way for them to digest it. The most important role that parents can play is to get kids to express their feelings so that they don’t just swallow them and develop psychological problems later on. The grownups part of the book concludes with 88 ideas that parents and teachers can do with kids to help them grow up healthy and happy, despite it being a time of terror.

The second half of the book is an interactive picture book for kids. This is best read together with a grownup, so that kids can ask questions as they go along. For example, in answer to the question, “What is a terrorist?” the book shows a picture of a bully on the playground with the words, “A terrorist is like a big bully on the playground,” and goes on to explain more.

Before the page with Osama Bin Laden’s picture, kids are asked to draw what they imagine a real terrorist looks like. There are pictures of terrorists in the Middle East, too, along with answers to why terrorists are trying to hurt people. There are opportunities for kids to draw how they’re feeling and point to emojis that match their feelings; draw their “safe place” and so on. The children’s part of the book concludes with 10 lessons or activities kids can do to make themselves safer.

The overall idea is to turn homes and classrooms into more nurturing and comforting nests to nourish and develop kids into more resilient beings who can cope with terrorism.

The Wizard of Oz is the story from which the book title comes. It describes Dorothy, the Tin Man, and the Scarecrow skipping off to find the Wizard. When night falls, the forest becomes a scary place, especially when the Tin Man says they might meet “lions and tigers and bears.” But, since they each want to ask the Wizard for something important, they find the courage within themselves to continue, now singing, “Lions and tigers and bears, Oh My!” The Tin Man wants a heart, the Scarecrow wants brains, and Dorothy wants to go home. Later, the Lion joins their quest because he wants courage. So, the moral of the story is that we each have enough heart, brains and courage to see us through scary times and there’s “No place like home.”

Carole in Paris, helping teachers talk about terrorism with their students


Varda Epstein: Do you think the experience of terror is universal? Do children in the United States, for example, experience terror differently, and if so, how so? Are their needs in the aftermath of terror different?

Carole Lieberman: To some degree, the experience of terror is universal, but different societies raise children with different tolerances and strengths to withstand it. For example, in America these days, many children are coddled too much and aren’t given enough opportunities to build character by being put into character-building situations – such as learning to be independent in summer sleepaway camps. The more challenges children have, that they are helped to overcome, the more confidence they have in themselves for dealing with future challenges – including terrorism. The only caveat to this is that children who already have psychological problems before terror attacks are often less able to cope with the added stress of terror. In the aftermath, every child needs a loving support system to see them through.


"The Terrorist Therapist®" on Good Morning Britain 

Varda Epstein:  Your book, published in 2017, tells parents to “teach tolerance.” You write, for example, “Explain that most Muslims, believers in Islam, are not terrorists or ‘bad guys.’ They want to live peaceful lives, too.” Do you still believe this, even in the wake of what happened on October 7, when ordinary Gazans and UNRWA teachers joined in the rape, sexual violence, and massacre of peaceful Israelis? How can one know that most Muslims are not terrorists? Are there statistics? Is this a helpful thing to teach Israeli children as well as American children?

Carole Lieberman: It is very tricky to walk the fine line of not teaching kids to be Islamophobic while giving them a true picture of Muslims and Radical Islamist terrorists. All Muslims have the potential to be or become Radical Islamists because they believe in the Koran to a greater or lesser extent and most belong to a mosque. In America there are fewer madrassas than in the Middle East, so there are fewer children who are taught to become terrorists from the time they are toddlers. Israel, on the other hand, is surrounded by countries that do have madrassas which teach children that the holiest life they could lead, and for which they would be rewarded in the afterlife, is to devote themselves to destroying Israel and killing Jews. This puts Israel in greater danger.

Certainly, there have not been many Muslims – anywhere in the world - who have spoken out against terrorists and terror attacks, so they seem to be giving tacit approval by quietly condoning them. Still, there are Muslims who don’t approve and want peace. It’s safe to say that, “Not all Muslims are terrorists, and not all terrorists are Muslim.”

It's hard to know percentages as to how many Muslims are radical Islamists. Some radical Islamists can be said to “misinterpret” the Koran in a way that gives them the right to kill Jews or even encourages them to kill Jews. Radical Islamists claim that they are not “misinterpreting” the Koran – but that all Muslims are commanded by Allah to not only destroy Israel and Jews, but to perpetrate global jihad against ALL infidels – Jews, Christians, anyone who doesn’t worship Allah as their only God.

Of course, it is hard to explain why children (or adults) in Israel should not be terrified of all Muslims, no less open their hearts to them, after October 7. The terrorists acted like primitive animals, driven by their religious zeal, believing that they were doing the most honorable acts – even as they were raping and murdering. But, on the other hand, Israelis and American Jews have the most open hearts on earth, so it is not good to teach them to harden their heart to anyone, but rather to be very careful.

 

Dr. Lieberman is a highly sought talk show guest for her expertise on children and terror

Varda Epstein: Reading your book after October 7, while Israel still has captives in Gaza, I found myself nodding at some parts of your book, while other parts distressed me, because they didn’t seem like they made sense for the children directly affected by Israel’s “Black Sabbath.”

This part, for example:

Child: What will happen to me if you don't come to pick me up at school or you don't come home? What if you get hurt?

Parent: you don't have to worry about being left alone to take care of yourself. If you are at school, the teachers will take care of you until someone from our family or one of our adult friends comes to pick you up. If I don't come home because I am hurt, then someone in our family or one of our adult friends will come home to take care of you. I will be in a doctor's office or in the hospital getting well. If you ever get scared because I am not where you think I am supposed to be, then ask a teacher, or your babysitter, or some other adult taking care of you, if you can call me. If you can't reach me, then call the people on the list of family and friends we made together. These people will take good care of you. You will always have someone to love you, no matter what happens.

Things didn’t exactly play out this way for the children of Be’eri, Nir Oz, Kfar Aza, and other places that came under attack. What should Israeli parents be telling their children to do if their mommies don’t pick them up from school or don’t come home because they are being held hostage in Gaza? What do you tell Israeli children who saw atrocities visited on their siblings, parents, and neighbors?

Carole Lieberman: Although it is true that many of the children of Be’eri, Nir Oz, Kfar Aza and other places that came under attack lost parents and siblings, and were plunged into chaos on October 7, they were eventually rescued by friends, family, or social agencies who tried to comfort them and help them get back to as normal a life as possible. These children who saw atrocities and lost loved ones will be more traumatized than children in parts of Israel that were not attacked. The best way to help them is to gently get them to express their feelings – not to hold them in, and to provide food, shelter and caring people around them, as well as a simple and steady routine of school, mealtimes, bedtimes, and so on.

 

At Bataclan in Paris

Varda Epstein: Is there a right or wrong way to teach children about a loved one’s death due to terror? For example, on October 7, there were children whose parents and/or siblings were killed or brutalized in other ways in front of them. How can we explain to them why this happened, or the nature of what happened, and why it had to happen in front of them? Is there a way to make them feel safe going forward?

Carole Lieberman: The way to teach children about a loved one’s death due to terror will depend upon the age and psychological maturity of the child. If they are younger than 7 or 8 or so, they are not usually able to understand the permanency of death. If a child saw their loved one killed, in some ways it is easier to explain death, but harder to erase the memory of how they died. Ask them what they believe happens to someone after they die. If what they believe comforts them, such as their mommy or daddy being up on a cloud in heaven, listening to angels play harps and eating chocolate-covered macaroons, there’s no reason to take this away from them. It’s especially helpful to point out signs that their loved one is still with them in spirit, such as when they see something that had special significance to their loved one – like an animal or poem, or when something good happens to them. If possible, it’s comforting for them to carry with them a photograph, an article of clothing, or something else that belonged to their loved one. It’s important to encourage the children to talk about good memories they have of their loved ones, and to write these down in a diary, so that they can think of the good memories whenever the bad memory of their death comes to their mind.

You can explain that the people who brutalized or killed their loved one were driven by a false belief that they were going to be rewarded for killing people who don’t believe in the same religion that they do – radical Islam. For some, you can explain that terrorists were taught from the time that they were little, in schools called madrassas, that their goal in life should be to kill all the people who don’t believe in their god, Allah, and to start with Israel first. It wasn’t because their loved one was bad or did anything to deserve being killed. If it happened in front of them, it was because this gave the cruel terrorists pleasure and they wanted to warn others that they had better follow their rules in the future.

To reassure these children, you can tell them about all the people, organizations, the IDF and so on, who are working to keep them safe all the time. It often helps to tell them that their lost loved one has become their guardian angel and will try to guide them to keep safe.


Varda Epstein: There was a recent story about a social worker who stayed on the phone with the Idan children (ages 6 and 9, the siblings of released 4-year-old hostage Abigail) for 12 hours as they hid in a closet from terrorists who had infiltrated their kibbutz on October 7. Their mother had been murdered and her body was right outside the closet door. How would you grade this social worker’s performance? 



The Idan children hid on the shelves on this closet for 12 hours until they were rescued, with their mother's body right outside the door.

Carole Lieberman: I think this social worker did an excellent job of keeping the Idan children comforted and safe. Her instincts told her when they shouldn’t open the door to terrorists or be seen by them from the window. She also realized how important it was for the phone to have enough charge to keep her connected as their lifeline. She made sure that the little boy was able to bear the sight of his deceased mother, who he would have to see if he made his way to get the charger. She kept her voice calm and soothing and promised that she would stay with them until they got rescued, which turned out to be 12 hours later. But she kept her promise.


Book talk at the Hollywood Book Festival

Varda Epstein: How should Israeli parents talk to their children about October 7th and the hostage situation? What can we say or do for children whose loved ones are still held hostage? For very young children, is it better to distract them from the subject of an absent, hostage parent or sibling, or is it preferable to help keep their memories of these loved ones, alive? 

Carole Lieberman: It is important not to pretend that a child’s loved one, who is still being held hostage, hasn’t been taken by Hamas. On the other hand, this isn’t something that needs to be spoken about 24/7. Children can be comforted by knowing that there is still a chance that their loved one may survive and be returned to them, as they have seen in the news happen for other families. Of course, they want to know why their parent or sibling hasn’t returned, but at least there is still hope. It’s important to reassure them that their loved one isn’t choosing to be away from them, but that the “bad people,” the terrorists, are holding onto them to try to get what they want from Israel.

Families should not promise children that their loved one will absolutely return home in case this doesn’t happen. But you can keep a photo or an object that brings back memories of the hostage in a visible place, and pray together for their safe return. You can also ask the child to talk about what they would like to do with their loved one when they get back. The most important thing is to get the child to express their feelings: sadness, anger, longing, hope, and so on.

Varda Epstein: Should all Israeli children, in general, be considered to be affected by terror? What should Israeli parents be on the watch for with their children? What are the warning signs that a child affected by terror needs help from a mental health professional? 

Carole Lieberman: All Israeli children are affected by terror – whether they have seen it up close and personal, or in the media, or have just absorbed the terror from those around them. Some children won’t show it and will try to pretend that nothing is different or wrong, especially if they get the message from others that they’re not supposed to talk about it.

Terror often makes children regress, behaving as they did when they were much younger. For example, they may wet the bed, be afraid of the dark, or suck their thumb. It’s important not to shame them for these signs that they need more comforting. If these behaviors persist, they need help from a mental health professional.

The four basic reactions children have to terror are feeling scared, sad, mad, or bad. It’s natural to feel scared after October 7, but parents need to be on the lookout for symptoms that this has progressed from reasonable fear to more serious anxiety, obsessive-compulsive disorder, or Post-Traumatic Stress Disorder. It’s also natural for children to feel sad, knowing terrorists have hurt people or taken them as hostages, but parents need to be aware that this can turn into more serious depression. It’s also natural for children to feel mad about what happened on October 7, and that their life has still not been able to return to normal. But parents should get professional help if their child starts acting out their anger. Feeling bad happens when children can’t distinguish exactly how they feel. They feel a muddle of scared, sad, mad and perhaps other emotions, too. If their confusion and malaise persists, they, too may need professional help.

Book launch at the National Press Club in Washington, D.C.


Varda Epstein: What about the Israeli children who were held captive, and then released? What should we expect to see, and how can they be helped? Will they ever experience complete healing—is that possible?

Carole Lieberman: The Israeli children who were held captive and then released will have psychological scars, the gravity of which will depend upon their age, their psychological stability before they were held captive, and how they were treated in Hamas captivity. Of course, they’ll be happy and excited to return to their families, but this should not be interpreted as their having no scars. All of them need to be in intensive psychotherapy – at least for a few years – depending upon the severity of their trauma. The biggest risk, when families are so thrilled to have them come home, is to overlook the deeper wounds inside and pretend that everything will be okay just because they’re back home. These children won’t want to worry their families by telling them about the worst atrocities they’ve experienced as hostages. So, they need a professional therapist to gradually allow them to talk about it, or to express their feelings through play therapy, and eventually heal.

Varda Epstein: I have heard it said, even before October 7, that there is not a person in Israel who is not suffering from PTSD as a result of terror, even when the terror is only something they hear about or read about happening to others. Do you think there is any truth to this idea? 

Carole Lieberman: In America, studies show that people who weren’t anywhere near sites of 9/11 attacks, but who watched news reports of that day over and over again on television, developed PTSD. So, it is likely that there’s not a person in Israel who is not suffering from some degree of PTSD as a result of terror, even when the terror is only something they hear about or read about happening to others. This is especially true for those Israelis who have endured many terror threats and attacks beginning way before October 7th.

Varda Epstein: How should parents talk to kids about terror? What are some common misperceptions children may have about terror and how can we help clarify things for them in a helpful way?

Carole Lieberman: The two most important things that parents must remember when talking to kids about terror are to tell them the truth (though softening the roughest parts is allowed, especially for young children), and to prioritize getting them to talk about their feelings, so that they don’t swallow them and hold them inside, or else they’ll have psychological problems down the road.

The most damaging misperception that children have about terrorism is that they, their family or their country as a whole, must have done something wrong to deserve the punishment dished out by terrorists. This is why it’s important to explain that terrorists are taught - from the time they are toddlers - to hate everyone who doesn’t believe in their God, Allah, and to wage war (jihad) on them. Grownups need to reassure children that there are many people who are aware of this and who work every day to protect them.

Route91Strong Anniversary Fundraiser For Victims Of The October 1st, 2017 Las Vegas Shooting, with Lisa Vanderpump

Varda Epstein: What advice can you offer to Israeli parents and children at this difficult time?

Carole Lieberman: Israelis have some advantages over Americans when it comes to coping with terrorism. For one thing, Israeli children are raised to value becoming resilient. For another thing, there is a stronger appreciation of God than in some American homes. It is comforting to remember that God has always looked out for Israel and Jewish people. He is more powerful than terrorists. With His help, you can turn all the evil that has happened, from October 7th on, into something good: making your home an even more loving and nurturing nest that provides even more comfort and strength for all family members. Am Yisrael Chai.

***

Carole Lieberman, M.D., M.P.H. is a Board-Certified Beverly Hills psychiatrist who treats patients; testifies at trials as an expert witness; and is a regular, three-time Emmy Award-winning guest on such top TV shows as Oprah, the Today Show, Good Morning America, CNN, FOX News, HLN, ET, ABC, CBS, NBC, Oxygen, Court TV, and Law and Crime. Lieberman received her training at NYU-Bellevue and at Anna Freud's London Clinic and has served on the Clinical Faculty of UCLA's Neuropsychiatric Institute. She hosts “Dr. Carole’s Couch” on VoiceAmerica and the “Terrorist Therapist Show” podcast.

Known worldwide as The Terrorist Therapist®, Dr. Lieberman is also the bestselling award-winning author of four books, two of them on terror. Dr. Lieberman’s book, the first of its kind on children and terror, can be purchased on Amazon at the following link: Lions and Tigers and Terrorists, Oh My! How to Protect Your Child in a Time of Terror



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Friday, May 24, 2024

By Daled Amos

Irwin J. (Yitzchak) Mansdorf, Ph.D., is a fellow at the Jerusalem Center of Public Affairs specializing in political psychology and a member of the emergency division of IDF Homefront Command. Earlier this month, the JCPA published his article, “Both Sides” and “Innocent Civilians”: The Psychological Effect of Language in the Gaza War on their website.

Dr. Irwin J. Mansdorf


I asked Dr. Mansdorf about his article.
His responses are lightly edited for brevity and clarity.


Generally, when people talk about Israel and the Arabs, they talk about "the cycle of violence," indicating that both sides are equally responsible and no one side should be blamed. You write about how "the both sides argument" is used when discussing the Gaza War. How is that different? Why do people use "the both sides argument"?

The expression "cycle of violence" is a perfect example of a "both sides" mentality. Instead of assigning responsibility for "violence," it perpetuates a myth of "action-reaction-action-reaction." It is similar to the chicken and egg analogy. Since we are never told what came first, who started, who is persisting, and who refuses to end, it appears "both sides" are to blame.

You write that this argument is "a cognitively inconsistent mantra." How so?

Saying "both sides" are responsible is fine if it is true. Otherwise, it is illogical to contend that the victim is the same as the aggressor. In Palestinian circles, there is no "both sides." Palestinian culture and its Western supporters clearly place responsibility and guilt upon the Israeli side, whom they accuse of being colonialists and hence, automatically in the wrong. When some Westerners use "both sides," they are adopting a philosophy that holds that blame is never black and white. Since that is patently false, and sometimes there is right and wrong, the automatic assumption of a "what seems fair" argument splitting blame does not meet the test of logical consistency.

Another commonly used phrase is "innocent civilians." How is that phrase used and what are the underlying assumptions?

A "civilian" may or may not be "innocent." The tendency in much of the media is to again automatically assign "innocence" to all civilians, regardless of whether or not they actually are innocent. A civilian who harbors terrorists, feeds them, covers for them, and believes in their mission carries responsibility for their actions.

How does "the both sides argument," which assumes "an air of fairness," lead to the contrary claim where Israel particularly is blamed, in this case being accused of genocide? Why is it so difficult for the West to see Israelis as "innocent civilians"

In the eyes of many, Israel is a colonial power and its citizens are thus "settler-colonialists." That makes them responsible for taking land that rightfully belongs to the indigenous people, namely the Palestinians. Those who follow this thinking do not have a "both sides" philosophy but rather come down on the wrong end of the right-wrong formula. This happened because they adopted a false ideology related to a wrongly presumed colonial identity of Israel, which assigns guilt, and blame and thus negates innocence.

What is the problem of defining Gazans as "innocent civilians"?

Some Gazans may be innocent. But those who subscribe to the Hamas philosophy related to Jews cannot be said to be fully "innocent." In many homes in Gaza, ammunition, escape tunnels, along with literature of hate and racism against Jews were found. This does not take away Israel's responsibility under international law and moral behavior to protect these civilians, regardless of their personal identification with the enemy, as long as they do not become active participants in attacks on Israelis or Israeli soldiers. For example, on October 7th, there is video documentation of "ordinary" Gazans storming into Israel along with the Hamas terrorists and looting Israeli communities and homes. Many were also seen taking part in the kidnapping and spiriting of Israeli hostages back into Gaza. These are not the actions of "innocents" even though they wore no uniform.

Is there a difference between Hamas and the Palestinian Authority that would indicate a difference between Gazans and West Bank Arabs as "innocent civilians"?

The Palestinian Authority is no different from Hamas in its goals, although some of their methods may differ. The PA funds terrorism, incentivizes people to carry out terror attacks, rewards them when they do, and teaches--through an educational system that demonizes Jews--that Israel has no place in the region and Jews have no real history in the land.

You mention that after WWII, the Allies instituted a "denazification" program in Germany and the US had the Japanese extensively reform their education program. What would be a possible approach to reforming the Gazans?

Every culture needs to be treated in ways that respect the mores and ways of that particular culture. In developing a program for the Palestinian population, the particular religious, social, and cultural mores that would support leaving terror behind and moving towards coexistence and cooperation would be embellished. A model for this can be found in the Gulf States which entered into the "Abraham Accord" agreements with Israel. They developed model educational systems that promote peace and cooperation and removed all references that negatively are associated with Jews and Israel.

You write "Legal requirements should not be confused with moral standards." Can you elaborate on that?

Despite the questionable "innocence" of many Palestinian civilians, and their clearly immoral behavior, Israel carries a legal responsibility to protect them if they act as noncombatants. Israel's moral code would similarly be consistent with this and at times go further than required under the law to protect civilians (e.g., providing advanced warning of attacks, actively moving civilians out of danger zones, providing more humanitarian aid than required, etc.)

Read “Both Sides” and “Innocent Civilians”: The Psychological Effect of Language in the Gaza War



Buy the EoZ book, PROTOCOLS: Exposing Modern Antisemitism  today at Amazon!

Or order from your favorite bookseller, using ISBN 9798985708424. 

Read all about it here!

 

 

Friday, April 19, 2024

By Daled Amos 


This interview was done before Israel's response to Iran's attack this morning. It outlines an approach that in fact appears to be the one adopted by Israel in Syria and Iran.

"Israel continuing undeterred to attack Iranian interests as before, would frustrate the Iranian attempt to stop Israeli action against Iran and their proxies"
Irwin Mansdorf, Ph.D., fellow at the Jerusalem Center of Public Affairs specializing in political psychology 

Dr. Irwin J. Mansdorf



In your recent article, To Respond or Not to Respond: Is That the Real Question? you discuss the issue of Israel's deterrence of Iran, in light of Iran's direct attack on Israel. From a psychological standpoint, what is the definition of deterrence? How is its success measured?

Deterrence is simply reducing the probability, frequency, or intensity of an action. For Iran, deterrence is directed at Israel’s actions against Iranian interests in Syria, Lebanon, and in Iran proper. For Israel, deterrence is targeted against Iranian aggression against Israel.

Israel has been attacking Iranian targets both in Syria and in Iran itself for years now. What do you think Israel's goal has been, and has it been successful?

Israeli actions in Syria differ from Israeli actions in Iran. Most of the activity in Syria was directed against arming Iranian proxies who fight Israel. Action on Iranian soil was directed largely at thwarting Iranian nuclear ambitions. Measuring success is relative, and since the motivation for attacking Israel and developing nuclear capability still exists, we can only talk about suppressing behavior as opposed to eliminating it.

As a psychological tool, does Israeli deterrence rely only on the 2 opposing parties, or is there a message there for Israel's "allies" in the West and the Gulf as well?

To the degree that Israeli interests align with that of “allies,” the message is the same. But for each “ally”, there are domestic considerations, and those considerations can determine how far any country will go in their cooperation with Israel or the United States against Iran.

You indicated in your article that the debate of whether Israel needs to retaliate has overlooked Iran's purpose in launching their barrage of drones and missiles. What was Iran's intent? How does that goal affect Israel's calculation of whether to retaliate immediately? What do you think Israel should do?

The immediate goal of Iran was to “punish” Israel for the strike that killed several top IRG commanders. This was a public humiliation for the Iranian regime that they apparently felt they needed to respond to. By launching such a massive response, they hoped for success, which would be a reduction in Israeli activity against Iran. However, Iran’s ultimate intent is to destroy Israel. That has been made clear time and time again. I don’t think there was an expectation that the drone and missile attack would destroy Israel, but it certainly was a test of their weaponry and an exercise that was aimed at convincing Israel to restrain attacks against Iranian interests.

Since Iran’s goal was to reduce Israeli military and covert operations against Iranian interests, Israel needs to continue according to a plan that demonstrates that the Iranian attack did not achieve that goal.

You write:

Considering the success of Israel in its defensive stance, any future Iranian actions in response to Israeli initiatives should be viewed as a failure in Iran’s stated goal of deterrence, viz. Israel

Can you elaborate?

I don’t think that Iran expected that their drone and missile attack would fail to produce more damage than it did. That reduced the deterrent effect of their action. Considering the scale of their attack, they would be risking an even greater loss of deterrence should a subsequent attack produce similarly limited results.

Business as usual -- Israel continuing undeterred to attack Iranian interests as before -- would frustrate the Iranian attempt to stop Israeli action against Iran and their proxies. While a larger-scale "show" attack would certainly make waves, we need to keep in mind that Iran's purpose in their attack was to stop the current Israeli policy, and an approach that counters those goals would appear to be most effective, and, given the international support at the moment, the most functional and practical for Israel to take.


In 2006, Kissinger wrote:

A modern, strong, peaceful Iran could become a pillar of stability and progress in the region. This cannot happen unless Iran's leaders decide whether they are representing a cause or a nation — whether their basic motivation is crusading or international cooperation. The goal of the diplomacy of the Six should be to oblige Iran to confront this choice.

Hamas sees itself more as a cause than as a nation, claiming that the defense of Gazans falls to the UN and Israel. Would that explain in part why deterrence has not worked?

Absolutely. Hamas is an abbreviation for the “Islamic” resistance movement, and “Palestine” is not even part of their name. Their motivation may include nationalistic goals, but their primary purpose is a religious one—and that sort of ideology is much more resistant to change

What about Iran -- do you think their "cause" of spreading Islam in general and their brand of radical Islam in particular help explain why the West, for its part, has had difficulty deterring Iran? Is it possible to successfully deter Iran?

“Deterrence” is temporary. Within Islamist philosophy, temporary breaks in fighting are acceptable so long as the goal of ultimate victory can be resumed at a later stage. The religious ideology of Iran’s leadership will not be deterred, in the conventional sense, from moving towards their ultimate goal. While they may make temporary concessions that, to Western eyes, may appear to be steps toward accommodation, this is only a “break in action” until the circumstances and conditions are ripe for them to take the next step toward their goals. Iran may seem to accept “moderation” as a temporary and functional step, but their ideology will always keep its goals against Israel and the United States on “standby” until they are able to take action.





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Or order from your favorite bookseller, using ISBN 9798985708424. 

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Wednesday, December 20, 2023

Residents of Efrat Concerned for their security say yes to only Jewish and foreign workers  

 Interview with Stephanie Treger

Stephanie Treger is determined to keep her family safe by keeping Arabs without Israeli citizenship out of Efrat where she lives. Here in Efrat, in the heart of Judea, we know what happened on October 7th. Regular Gazans stampeded that fence, alongside Hamas, and joined right in with the slaughter. 

From Treger’s point of view then, there is no choice. We have to stop letting them in to clean our schools; build our homes; and fill our prescriptions at the pharmacy. To be clear, “them” means non-Israeli Arabs.

As such, Stephanie Treger has sparked a modest grassroots effort to explore the exclusive use of Jewish and foreign labor in her town. She began by gathering the opinions and ideas of lots and lots of women. A petition was carefully composed in language hopefully inoffensive to all, and circulated in both Hebrew and English.

Will Treger succeed in her mission? Where are things going, and how will it all play out? Will the residents of Efrat be forced to allow the entry and use of non-Israeli Arab labor?

Stephanie Treger

A busy mother of eight, Stephanie gave graciously of her time to answer my many questions about this initiative. As I always do with interview subjects, I asked her for a few lines of biographical data from which I would cobble together my intro. What she wrote was so cool, I’m quoting it here verbatim:

My name is Stephanie Treger, I am 36 years old. I live in Efrat, Gush Etzion, Israel, with my husband Brandon and our eight children. We made aliyah seven years ago from South Africa, Cape Town. We own Power Coffeeworks, a coffee roastery in Shuk Machane Yehuda in Jerusalem. We made aliyah based on our Zionism and belief in the Jewish people, our past, present, and future.

Varda Epstein: You’re one of the women at the forefront of the effort to bar non-Israeli workers from Efrat. The petition has been up since December 7th, a full two months after the October attacks. Why now? Were the attacks the impetus for this effort or had you already been working on this?

Stephanie Treger: Correct, I am. It did take some time to get the ball rolling to start this initiative. I believe the women who have started this organisation together with me were in survival mode for some time after 7/10. Most of our husbands and partners are serving, which left us alone, and once the true magnitude of the devastation became apparent, we got right on it.

It also took time to go public; even with a simple petition it had to be done slowly, the wording of our letter needed to be politically correct. We took opinions from many women at the start. This is a very large issue, politically and emotionally. There are over 3 million Arabs living in Judea and Samaria who need jobs, and who also fulfill jobs that keep our cities running. Before the attacks on 7/10, this was a background issue for us all, but we just carried on as normal, it was just too big to deal with.

Varda Epstein: Efrat is a very modern town with many professionals among the residents. Are you meeting any resistance to your campaign? Can you talk about that? What percentage of Efrat residents would you say support allowing in only Jewish and foreign workers?

Stephanie Treger: In all honesty, I am shocked at the lack of support to date. At the same time, though we have not yet opened the tables for discussion, we are at least not in argument with or meeting resistance from non-supporters. Still, nearly two weeks after launching a simple petition, we have only retrieved 650 odd signatures in a city of over 14,000 residents.

After the 7/10 massacre by thousands of non-Israeli Arabs, I am surprised that this community, made up of extremely intelligent professionals, would want to resume “the norm” and continue bringing in non-Israeli Arab workers. At two months after 7/10, our eyes have been truly opened, watching the videos and testimonies of the survivors as they are released. We know how horrific this infiltration was and how it was planned. The intelligence collected to launch such an attack took a certain kind of evil genius. This was planned meticulously and we have proof of that from a variety of sources.

How can we possibly stand by and say “Never again”? More like “again” every few years, if we continue on in this way.

Varda Epstein: Some would say the idea of barring entry to your town of a specific ethnic demographic is racism. What would you say to them?

Stephanie Treger: I am a non-racist South African. I was raised in a racist country, and this is not racism. This is not an issue of color or ethnicity. This is an issue of protecting our families from a cult of terrorists whose sole intention is to murder us. If that were not the case, we would be living in peace. Simple.

We Jews cherish life. We want peace, we do not want war and we do not want poverty, but sadly, until Hamas and the other terrorist cells seize to exist, we have to protect our people.

Varda Epstein: Arab workers can only enter and work in Efrat accompanied by a security guard. Why is this measure not enough to keep the residents of Efrat safe?

Stephanie Treger: Since this rumor was brought to the fore, I have documented many occasions where Israeli Arabs were not accompanied by armed guards. So no, the measure is not enough to keep us safe.

The problem here is manpower and I don't personally blame the municipality or the mayor as some do. We have a huge problem on our hands. Our resources are low, we have zero manpower and I have no doubt that our local government is trying to find solutions. But we also need to take responsibility as a community.

We have to mobilize and work within the system to find solutions. There are many residents in this community who do not work. These residents could pull together and assist in cleaning the schools or work at local cafes. There are ways to create solutions but we need all hands on deck.

Varda Epstein: What types of work have Arab workers performed in Efrat, up until now?

Stephanie Treger: This exact question is what prompts my concerns for our safety. The Arab workers who have previously worked in Efrat have been able to cover every corner of our city possible. From cleaners in homes, to cleaners in schools and emergency departments; from workers in our cafes and restaurants to garbage disposal to street cleaners; and from handymen to construction workers.

There is an endless untold amount of intelligence that might have been and probably was collected by Arab workers, endless over the passing years. The workers are often unaccompanied by security, and safety checks are lax, in my opinion.

Varda Epstein: Why would a mostly right-wing populace hire Arabs to begin with? Why not Jews—their own people?

Stephanie Treger: This seems to be the crux of our struggle. We are not hiring Jews because Jews are more expensive. Jews need to shell out for taxes, arnona, and pensions. At the same time, the incomes of prospective Jewish employees are low because they must pay the same taxes as their prospective (Jewish) employees.

Arabs, conversely, can charge below half-price; be paid in cash; they have no amenity payments; and do not contribute to our society. This is something that needs to be dealt with at government level. Government now has this issue on its table. Cabinets are approving “no entry”. Now they need to find the solutions to manage it.

Varda Epstein: The petition appears to distinguish between Israeli and non-Israeli Arabs. Why? Are only non-Israeli Arabs dangerous? You don’t want to keep out the others?

Stephanie Treger: Personally, I see no difference at present. Even if Israeli Arab X doesn't want to be a terrorist, Hamas is holding guns to the heads of X’s children. Should he refuse to comply with the cult of Hamas, his entire family will be annihilated. I too, would surrender if my children's lives were at risk.

I may want to keep them out, but it’s illegal to keep them out. Israeli Arabs with ID cards cannot legally be held back from entering any part of Israel.

Varda Epstein: This campaign was started by women. Why do you think that is? Are men less concerned with this issue?

Stephanie Treger: Men are at the forefront on the borders; we women are at the forefront of our homes. It's pointless having the men protect our borders if we are not doing the same in our communities. I live in a 35-year-old home. My doors are not secure, and my window frames are old. I do not have a safe room. I am home alone, with 8 children under 13.

Gd forbid there was an infiltration of Efrat. I, as a woman, armed or not, would not be able to protect my family. We women want to serve and protect and it begins every time we wake up alive.

Varda Epstein: Is there some kind of precedent that led to this effort? Are non-Israeli workers known to attack their Jewish employers?

Stephanie Treger: My sister sat in her safe room for 23 hours with her baby and husband in Kibbutz Kfar Azza on 7/10, while her sister-in-law, cousins, and friends were raped, beheaded, burnt alive, and brutally murdered next door. Some taken hostage. My passion for this initiative is personal. I also have a love for my people. Never again is NOW.

Varda Epstein: There are Arab businesses that have cropped up right on Efrat’s doorstep, just outside the northern gate, and many Efrat residents appear happy to frequent them. But recently, a video was released showing one of these new business owners calling for settlers to die. How do feel about that?

Stephanie Treger: When you see videos of neighboring Arabs promote the death of "settlers" we naturally get concerned. Videos such as those directed by Corey Gil-Shuster are eye-openers to us all. The specific video I have in mind is of a man who lives adjacent to Efrat. His property borders that of our beautiful coffee shop that we and our children love to enjoy during the day and in the evenings. 

 

In this man's driveway is a car wash and a laundromat which until 7/10 were used by the Jews of Efrat. He was earning his living from the Jews of Efrat. Since 7/10 he has closed his gate and is not earning a salary to support his family. So to what extent do we believe that at some point the consequences of poverty will kick in?

When will he get angry enough with the Jews of Efrat that eventually he will fall in with a terrorist organisation to have revenge on the people he hated before we even shut him down.

This new reality is sad but true. We Jews who live in Judea are at risk for terror and we must not take risks in protecting our families and our people.

Varda Epstein: Do you think that there is a reluctance among the residents of Efrat, even after the events of October 7, to adopt a general attitude of distrust toward non-Israeli Arabs, especially those with whom they’ve formed casual relationships? Is there a feeling of, “Oh, he’d never do something like that. He’s always polite and friendly, and gives me good service.”

How would you illustrate the dangers of this outlook, from your perspective?

Stephanie Treger: I would point them to the words of Professor Arye Eldad, who headed the plastic surgery and burns unit at Hadassah Medical Center, and is also a former member of Knesset:

I was instrumental in establishing the Israeli National Skin Bank, which is the largest in the world. The National Skin Bank stores skin for every day needs as well as for war time or mass casualty situations. This skin bank is hosted at the Hadassah Ein Kerem University hospital in Jerusalem where I was the chairman of plastic surgery. This is how I was asked to supply skin for an Arab woman from Gaza, who was hospitalized in Soroka Hospital in Beersheba after her family burned her. Usually, such atrocities happen among Arab families when the women are suspected of having an affair. We supplied all the needed Homografts for her treatment. She was successfully treated by my friend and colleague Prof. Lior Rosenberg, and discharged to return to Gaza. She was invited for regular follow up visits to the outpatient clinic in Beersheba. One day she was caught at a border crossing wearing a suicide belt. She meant to explode herself in the outpatient clinic of the hospital where they saved her life. It seems that her family promised her that if she did that, they would forgive her.

This is only one example of the war between Jews and Muslims in the Land of Israel. It is not a territorial conflict. This is a civilizational conflict.

Varda Epstein: Is this campaign going to continue to be a local, Efrat phenomenon, or do you have bigger plans for this—perhaps to take this national?

Stephanie Treger: We will see; we can't manage alone. We all need to hold hands. We were lucky to see that it went to government last week. We will take it day by day and do our best to succeed. It's all we can do really. 

NOTE: Go to PETITION to see, sign, and share. 



Buy the EoZ book, PROTOCOLS: Exposing Modern Antisemitism  today at Amazon!

Or order from your favorite bookseller, using ISBN 9798985708424. 

Read all about it here!

 

 

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