Tuesday, August 24, 2010

  • Tuesday, August 24, 2010
  • Elder of Ziyon
Le Point (French) reports on a young Jewish woman who filed a complaint after being assaulted in a supermarket in Toulouse. The victim said she was harassed by two teenagers who accused her of buying food during the day of the Ramadan fast. The woman told them that she was allowed to buy food because she wasn't Muslim as they assumed, but Jewish.

Big mistake.

This new fact caused the "youths" to become more angry. After they called her a "dirty Jewess", they hit her on the head, knocking her down to the floor.

A security guard watched the scene without intervening. When questioned by investigators about the reasons for his indifference, the man explained that he respected Ramadan and also he was hungry and anxious to leave in order to eat at sunset.

In an earlier incident, a Senegalese man who was eating during the daytime in a restaurant in Lyons was attacked, hit in the head with both a glass bottle and with a chair. His skull was fractured and he underwent surgery.
  • Tuesday, August 24, 2010
  • Suzanne
While "squabbles" erupted in the streets of Beirut in Lebanon, the UN tribunal says that Hezbollah's evidence in the Hariri case is far from complete.

As you might remember Nasrallah accused Israel of being behind the Hariri assassination. During a press conference he showed several clips of aerial views of various areas in Lebanon that he alleged were intercepted from unmanned Israeli surveillance drones. The clips included footage of several sites in Lebanon that also show the area where Hariri was assassinated, but were not from the same year.

In response to the request of the Office of the Prosecutor, on 17 August 2010, Hezbollah officials hand-delivered to the Prosecutor General of Lebanon an envelope containing six DVDs. This material was handed over to the Office of the Prosecutor on the same day.

But now it appears that the evidence presented by Hezbollah in the case of the 2005 assassination of Lebanese premier Rafik Hariri is incomplete, since the material that was handed over is limited to the material shown during the 9 August 2010 press conference and does not contain “the rest of the evidence” that Nasrallah referred to in his press conference.

In a press statement the Office of the Prosecutor of the Special Tribunal for Lebanon requests additional information and evidence held by Nasrallah:
The information received will be thoroughly assessed. This can properly be done only if it is based on a complete record. This is why the Office of the Prosecutor has requested the Lebanese authorities to provide the remaining material to which the Secretary General of Hezbollah referred to in his press conference of 9 August 2010 without delay.
  • Tuesday, August 24, 2010
  • Elder of Ziyon
From Naharnet:

Three people were killed in fierce armed clashes between members of Hizbullah and partisans of the Association of Islamic Charitable Projects (Al-Ahbash) in the Beirut area of Burj Abi Haidar on Tuesday evening.

Police told Agence France Presse the fighters were using shoulder-launched rocket-propelled grenades and machine guns in the fighting, in which several other people were wounded.

The state-run National News Agency said Hizbullah's official Mohammed Fawwaz and his bodyguard Ali Mohammed Jawad were killed in the fighting.

Media reports said an Ahbash official was also killed in the clashes.

Hizbullah, Lebanon's most powerful political and military force, is backed by Syria and Iran.

Al-Ahbash is also pro-Syrian and describes itself as a charitable organization promoting Islamic culture.

It first came to light in 1983 and gathered strength during the Syrian military presence in Lebanon.

The fighting took place as Hizbullah chief Sayyed Hassan Nasrallah addressed an all-women iftar banquet.
The peaceful Islamic charity managed to kill 2 Hizballah men, while only losing one.

Apparently, it is not unusual for charities in Lebanon to walk around with RPGs and machine guns.



In other Lebanese news, a seventh dead cow has been found floating off the coast.

I'm not sure which story is weirder.
  • Tuesday, August 24, 2010
  • Elder of Ziyon
Now! Lebanon has an article about how Lebanon busted an alleged Israeli spy ring of some 150 people. The article starts with this fascinating story:

In 2006, a ship cut silently through the Mediterranean on a moonless night before docking at a small Lebanese port. On board were a microwave dish and a Fiber Airport produced by Ceragon, an Israeli company specializing in wireless telecom and the delivery of voice and data services. One month later, a technician traveling under a fake name installed the equipment on top of the Barouk Mountain, one of Lebanon’s highest peaks.

For three years, the dish emitted radio frequencies connecting Lebanese internet users to Israel. Most users of this particular network were oblivious as to who to thank for their excellent internet connection. Rumor has it that the Lebanese presidential palace and Ministry of Defense, as well as the personal houses of the head of the army and other top-ranking military officials, were connected unknowingly to Israel, with which Lebanon is still technically at war. According to telecom experts speaking to NOW Lebanon on condition of anonymity, the breach was due in part to the reliance of Lebanese national agencies on rudimentary firewall systems.

While talk of the Barouk scandal was quickly hushed due to the seeming unwitting involvement of top politicians from both sides of the political spectrum, it was, nonetheless, a major event in Lebanon’s intelligence war against Israel.

While this sounds very possible, I am a bit more skeptical about the arrests of the alleged spies. For example, the story is illustrated with this photo and caption:

A masked Lebanese secret service officer shows on May 11, 2009 a wireless internet router found with arrested Lebanese nationals accused of spying for Israel. (AFP photo/Joseph Barrak)

In my house I have that exact same kind of spy equipment!
  • Tuesday, August 24, 2010
  • Elder of Ziyon
Someone on a mailing list I read asked if anyone could help write a song parody about dhimmis, and one of his ideas was to use "Tommy Can You Hear Me?" from The Who.

Well, that song does not give too much flexibility, but on the same album is a song called "Christmas" which would do the job nicely, slightly modified to include "Tommy Can You Hear Me?" as well.

So here it is:

Did you hear about the Christians protesting so much for Palestinians?
They have malls and hotels yet demand more money from the West by billions,
They pretend that Muslims protect the Christians still living in Bethlehem
They can't see that Islam is working overtime to just get rid of them,

But Dhimmis don't notice the Christians fleeing there,
They don't believe what their own eyes are seeing there,
They will surely lose,
When all they blame are Jews.

Christian population in the West Bank has gone down about 50%,
Protestant Churches cannot be bothered to find out exactly why they went,
Bombs are thrown in churches, fires, threats, injuries and sometimes even Christian deaths,
While Christians flee the West Bank plenty are safe in Israel's Nazareth.

But Dhimmis don't notice the Christians fleeing there,
They don't believe what their own eyes are seeing there,
They will surely lose,
When all they blame are Jews.

* Dhimmi can you hear me?
* Why do you blame the Jews?
* Dhimmi why can't you see?
* Soon they'll come after you!
Oh, Dhimmi, dhimmi, dhimmi, dhimmi,
They'll come after you!

Did you hear about the Christians protesting so much for Palestinians?
They have malls and hotels yet demand more money from the West by billions,
They pretend that Muslims protect the Christians still living in Bethlehem
They can't see that Islam is working overtime to just get rid of them,

But Dhimmis don't notice the Christians fleeing there,
They don't believe what their own eyes are seeing there,
They will surely lose,
When all they blame are Jews.
  • Tuesday, August 24, 2010
  • Elder of Ziyon
Evelyn Gordon at Commentary:

Everyone knows Israel has yet to satisfy Palestinian demands; the Palestinians proclaim this nonstop. But few people even know what Israel’s demands are, let alone that the Palestinians have rejected every single one.

And unless Israel starts telling them, they never will.

Meryl Yourish:
Oh, wait—the Gazans aren’t starving anymore? There’s not a humanitarian crisis? They’re simply—unhappy? Wait, wait—how come the Gazans can’t leave? Did the AP cover the history of exactly why Gazans are unable to enter Israel and Egypt freely?

Khaled Abu Toameh at Hudson NY:

A president whose term in office expired a long time ago, and a prime minister who won about 2% of the vote when he ran in an election, have now been invited by the US Administration to hold direct peace talks with Israel on behalf of the Palestinians.

The 18-member PLO Executive Committee, which met in Ramallah last week to approve the Palestinians' participation in the direct talks with Israel, is dominated by unelected veteran officials.

Only nine PLO officials attended the meeting. The PLO constitution requires a minimum of 12 members for a quorum. This means that, contrary to reports in the Palestinian and international media, Abbas and Fayyad do not have the support of the PLO committee to negotiate directly with Israel.

Also, Happy Birthday CiF Watch!
  • Tuesday, August 24, 2010
  • Suzanne
And the Mariam ship is delayed yet again.
A ship carrying women activists and aid will no longer head to Gaza via Cyprus from Lebanon on Sunday, the organisers said, after Nicosia announced it would not allow the vessel to sail from its ports.

...

Cypriot police said on Friday the arrival and departure of ships to or from Gaza through Cyprus ports was prohibited, prompting the Lebanese transport minister to revoke permission for the ship to sail there, according to the organisers.

Ghazi Aridi told New TV on Friday the ship would not sail as long as Cypriot authorities have refused to receive it. He added Lebanon would not give permission for sail to an unknown party.

Spokeswoman for the Mariam, Rima Farah, said the trip was not cancelled indefinitely but that "it was stalled because we face a reality which imposes that".

Farah said there was not enough time between now and 10pm on Sunday (1900 GMT), when Mariam was supposed to set sail, to go through the process of finding another port to sail from.

Lebanon does not authorise ships to sail directly to Gaza because it is in a formal state of war with Israel, which controls Gaza waters.
In the meanwhile, if it is up to George Galloway there will be another Flotilla heading towards Hamastan,... er... Gaza.
  • Tuesday, August 24, 2010
  • Elder of Ziyon
Yesterday I blogged about a goal that an Israeli team scored against an Austrian team, followed by the scorer celebrating by putting on a kipah - and getting a yellow card.

Silke has been all over this for me, as my knowledge of the sport is very lacking, but she contacted an expert who has acted as a referee for soccer matches and he confirmed that handing out the yellow card for that is a ridiculous and disproportionate application of the rules, given what other celebrations look like.

She found an article in TheJC that gives more background:

Hapoel Tel Aviv striker Itay Shechter insists that his unique celebration wearing a kippah after scoring the Israeli team's third goal in the 3-2 victory over Red Bull Salzburg in the Champions League play-off was not a provocation.

Shechter said that putting on the red kippa with Hapoel's emblem was a premeditated act.
He explained: “A Hapoel fan at the airport gave me the kippah and I thought to myself I'll put it in my sock and if God let's me score I'll put it on and say Shema Yisrael. I was not thinking about provoking anybody, I was only thinking about how happy all the Jewish people at home would be watching the game on TV.”

Hapoel manager Eli Guttman said: “I don't have a problem with Christian players who cross themselves after they score so why shouldn't Shechter pray the way he wants to.”

Shechter was booked by the Portuguese referee for putting on the kippah. Hapoel have not indicated whether they will appeal the booking.

The JC can reveal that the kippah was given to Shechter by Moshe Zinger, a 60-year-old religious Hapoel fan who travelled to Salzburg despite suffering from cancer. He said: "Seeing Hapoel win and Shechter put on the kippah gave me such a lift that I reckon if they checked me now they would find I am healthy."

Hapoel's reaction is classic:
Hapoel have now ordered 20,000 similar small red knitted kippot with the team's emblem on and plan to give them out to fans at next Tuesday night's second leg match.
I want video! Especially since Hapoel clubs originated with the anti-religious Labor Zionists from the 1920s.

My only question is - do they now have machines to make custom knitted kipot? I thought they were all still hand-crocheted, and 20,000 is a very big (and expensive) order!
  • Tuesday, August 24, 2010
  • Suzanne
Remember the Crazy Water Park? Hamas did not like it and closed it:

Hamas ordered the "Crazy Water," water park in Gaza closed due to men and women mixing at parties held in the park, Israel Radio reported on Sunday.

A spokesperson for the Hamas government claimed that the park was actually closed for only three days, because it did not have a proper permit. "Men and women are mixed throughout Gaza," the spokesperson said. "The closing is just a warning."

Why do I have the feeling that the "no proper permit"-story is just BS?
  • Tuesday, August 24, 2010
  • Suzanne
Heartbreaking story in the Economist:
The government of Yemen and its people are vociferously anti-Israel. Three of the country’s members of parliament were on the aid flotilla to Gaza that was lethally raided by Israeli commandos at the end of May. They were later given a hero’s welcome home. Yemenis rarely protest publicly against their own miserable circumstances at home. But when tensions rise in Gaza, they happily hold parades in Sana’a, the country’s capital. Comedies on television often feature stupid Israeli soldiers outwitted by plucky Palestinians.

Yet Yemenis also say they appreciate the heritage of their country’s Jews. In the Great Mosque in Sana’a’s ancient city, a guard, whispering as pious men pore over Korans, points out Jewish carvings. In the village of Jibla, south of Sana’a, locals show the star of David on an ancient synagogue, now a mosque. Market traders boast that their wares are made of traditional Jewish silver. A stern police officer gives a permit to a Jewish-American to let him visit an old Jewish village.

The village may soon be no more. The last hundred or so Yemeni Jews are set to leave after more than two millennia in the country. A century ago some 50,000 of them lived more or less peacefully alongside the Muslim majority, now numbering 23m. Life became harder for them after the creation of Israel in 1948, with outbreaks of violence against Jews.
Read the rest of the article...
  • Tuesday, August 24, 2010
  • Elder of Ziyon
From The Daily Star:

Three people were wounded Monday after a dispute between clerics loyal to the Fatah and Hamas groups in the Al-Buss Palestinian refugee camp turned into armed clashes, the Central News Agency (CNA) reported.

The clerics clashed over who would lead prayers at the camp’s mosque.

Al-Buss lies within the southern port city of Tyre.

The dispute started after Sunday’s iftar with an argument between Sheikh Hussein Qassem Maghreb, the Imam of the mosque, who is loyal to Fatah and members of the mosque’s committee, who are loyal to Hamas.

As the clashes broke out, Lebanese Army troops set a perimeter outside the camp to prevent the fighting from spreading while the Popular Palestinian Committee called for a cease-fire by both parties before organizing a reconciliation meeting.

Abu Mahmoud, a Fatah militant, and Fathi Chahine and Jamal Tahah from Hamas were wounded during the clashes.
To be fair, I've seen some heated arguments over who should lead prayers as well. This is exactly the same thing. Except for the weapons. But that's merely a cultural thing.
  • Tuesday, August 24, 2010
  • Elder of Ziyon
In the Boston Globe, James Carroll writes:

Christian Zionism is shorthand for the idea that the return of Jews to the Holy Land is a pre-requisite for the return of Jesus the Messiah, and the final redemption of the world. Believers who take this notion literally (and are understood, in that sense, to be fundamentalist) have been central players in the drama of Palestine for almost two centuries. A particular biblical verse seized the imagination of such Christians. (“O that the salvation Of Israel were come out of Zion! When God bringeth back the captivity of his people, Jacob shall rejoice and Israel shall be glad’’ — Psalm 56:6. St. Paul cited this verse in Romans 11:26, and Christians took it from there.)

No surprise, perhaps, that the enthused religious “awakenings’’ of 19th century evangelical Protestants therefore jelled around the literal restoration of Jews to their traditional homeland. We saw in a previous column how Catholicism regarded such return of Jews as anathema, but the so-called “restorationist’’ Protestant concern for Jews was not truly friendly. Rather, the restored Jews were only to be instruments of the final triumph of Christianity. Jews again in Israel would be faced with the choice of conversion or damnation.

Christian Restorationism drove a large European arrival in Palestine. The West Jerusalem area known as “the German Colony,’’ for example, was settled by millennial-minded German evangelicals who came to convert Jews. So, too, “the American Colony,’’ the vestige of which remains in the chic East Jerusalem hotel of that name. Indeed, Christian Zionism grew even more powerful in the United States than in Europe. Between a third and a half of all mid-19th century Americans were evangelical Christians, and this vision enlivened most of them. What began as an obsession of the devout became general, affecting even so religiously detached a figure as Abraham Lincoln. “Restoring the Jews to their national home in Palestine,’’ he wrote in 1863, “is a noble dream and one shared by many Americans.’’ Always, the imagined Jewish achievement was implicitly to be at the service not of Jewish vindication, but of an eschatological Christian triumph.

...The irony here is breathtaking. Pursuing an ultimate form of realpolitik, Israeli leaders happily collaborate with a reactionary American religious movement which, while having learned to downplay its Jew-denigrating End Time theology, nevertheless aims in its very essence at the elimination of Jewish faith. Israeli leaders, in their dependence on such Christians, exchange short-term benefit for long-term jeopardy. American Christian Zionism is a particularly lethal form of contemporary fundamentalism. Theologically uncritical and dangerously triumphalist, it is bad for Israel, Palestine, America, and peace.
Is it suicidal for Israel to accept support from Christian Zionists?

It is obvious from the full article that Carroll has no patience for fundamentalist Christians. He is an expert in historic anti-semitism from the Church. His antagonism for Jerry Falwell-types is very clear.

Yet the basic question is a question that many liberal Jews ask as well, and a great number of Jews are undoubtedly uneasy at the thought of collaborating with Bible-thumpers.

In the 19th century, Christian proto-Zionists in England and the US were overt in their reasons for wanting a Jewish presence restored to Zion. They explicitly said that this was a first step towards the conversion of the Jews. In unguarded moments, I would not be surprised if the current crop of Christian fundamentalists would admit to that same desire today.

However, when people or groups or nations cooperate, they only rarely do it for a single reason across the board. More often the relationship is symbiotic, where everyone brings something different to the table, including what they want to get out of it. To give a simple example, men often marry women for reasons far different than their wives had for getting married. Corporations merge for wildly different reasons. It doesn't mean that every such relationship is doomed, as long as each side fulfills the needs of the other.

As long as Christian Zionists have abandoned overtly trying to manipulate Jews into converting, and as long as their love for Israel is at least publicly unconditional, there is no real problem with welcoming their help. And if these ground rules change, it is not as if the relationship is only one way - the Jewish Zionists can freely choose to modify the terms as well.

Carroll's warning seems to be based more on his antipathy towards fundamentalists than on any real, concrete danger that Christian Zionists may represent. He just states categorically that they pose a "long term danger" to Israel. What, exactly, is this danger? Will they force Israel to do something that is against Israel's best interests? More to the point, why would any potential Christian Zionist influence on Israeli policy be inherently more dangerous than White House influence, or UN influence, or Jordanian influence?

Israel can decide on its own what the best course to take is. Carroll apparently is making the assumption that Christian Zionists are more likely to embolden Israel to reject a two-state solution or to hold on to larger areas of Judea and Samaria. He seems to take it on faith that this is inherently dangerous, yet  he couches that political opinion in religious terms meant to scare Jews - specifically, Jews who are more tenuous in their Jewish beliefs.

There is an irony here. Carroll styles himself as being an advocate of inter-religious cooperation. His website describes "his long work toward Jewish-Christian-Muslim reconciliation" (an interesting word choice that implies that once upon a time there was peace between the three.) Yet fundamentalist Christians are working hand in hand with religious Zionist Jews in Israel - a cooperation that is symbiotic even as their ultimate goals are admittedly completely different.

Apparently, to Carroll, only some kinds of inter-religious cooperation that is considered praiseworthy.
  • Tuesday, August 24, 2010
  • Elder of Ziyon
From Ma'an:
A Gaza official said Monday that despite media reports to the contrary, the electricity crisis in Gaza has worsened.

Kin'an Obed, vice president of the Energy Authority in Gaza, said efforts to solve the fuel dispute had failed and scheduled daily power cuts of 8- to 12-hours continue.

Earlier this month, the sole power station in the Strip shut down for two days due to lack of fuel. Hospitals declared a state of emergency as life-saving equipment was left reliant on generators.

The Gaza government blamed the Palestinian Authority for failing to deliver fuel, while the PA said the Hamas-led government had neglected to transfer fuel payments to Ramallah.

In an effort to resolve the dispute, Obed said from September the government would deduct 170 shekels from salaries of employed residents earning above a certain threshold to enable payment to the PA.

Spokesman for the Gaza Energy Authority Jamal Ad-Dardasawi said only one generator at the power station is functional, and called on the Palestinian governments to put political rivalry aside and to resolve the crisis, particularly during the holy month of Ramadan.
Remember all those (often staged) images of Gazans with candles that we saw when Gaza's electricity woes were blamed on Israel? I was wondering if there were any similar photos from the wire services showing Gazans using candles during the current electricity crisis that is entirely the fault of Palestinian Arabs.

The only results only further prove the bias of the wire services against Israel.

Here is one of the most recent "candle" photos, taken in late June by a service called Demotix, during a late June  shutdown that had nothing to do with Israel. Demotix is a user-generated photo service, used by many major news outlets, but I do not know who writes the captions - presumably the photographer.

A fuel shortage due to Israel's blockade forced the main Gaza Strip power station to shut down leaving about half the residents of Gaza without electricity, a power plant official said. Gaza, Palestinian Territory. 26/06/2010.

Even when Gaza's electricity woes are entirely Arab-driven, the only photos of candles you can find still blame Israel.

(If someone wants to research and publicize how Demotix is evidently allowing individuals to lie about the news in ways that get believed by major news outlets, who do not bother to fact check these stories, feel free to go down that path.)
  • Tuesday, August 24, 2010
  • Suzanne
Not only in Gaza...

The newspaper Dar al-Hayat mentions that more power outages will come to Lebanon as Egypt will temporarily stop providing electricity due to its own needs.

"Government's actions are the result of Egyptians feeling anger and resentment towards the continuing crisis of power outages in the country, which lasts more than a month."


There are concerns that the Egyptian electricity network will collapse due to the increased consumption. (@#$#% those air-conditioners).

And thus the Egyptian government decided to stop exporting electricity to Lebanon, Syria, Jordan and Libya.

In Gaza in the meanwhile, political bickering between Hamas and the Palestinian Authority result in massive electricity shutdowns.

Egypt supplies about 10 percent of electricity to Gaza.

Thus while the Arab brethern in Lebanon, Syria, Jordan and Libya have to suffer power cuts because of the new reasonable Egyptian export stop of electricity, the Gazans can have it all, but continue to fight about it.
  • Tuesday, August 24, 2010
  • Elder of Ziyon
From Ha'aretz in 2007:

Arnold Toynbee (1889-1975) was an important British historian, who through his controversial theory on civilizations found a place in Israeli and Jewish awareness as an "anti-Semite." According to his theory, civilizations, like human beings, have life cycles that are marked by rises and falls. But the story of the Jewish people, who were determined to survive 2,000 years in the Diaspora only to rise again as a modern nation, did not suit his theory. Thus Toynbee described the Jews as a historic "fossil" - not dead, true, but also not really alive.

When he published his theory at the beginning of the 1960s, he was invited to a debate. The person who invited him was Dr. Yaakov Herzog, at the time Israel's ambassador to Canada, son of the former chief rabbi Yitzhak Herzog and the younger brother of Chaim Herzog, a brilliant scholar and diplomat. Many of Foreign Ministry officials were wary of this debate, which was reminiscent of the mythological word battles in the Middle Ages between Jews and Christians. In the end, however, all those who were present at the debate that took place in January 1961 in Montreal were convinced that Herzog had won.

An email correspondent brought this to my attention and asked if I could find the transcript of that debate. Well, not quite, but the Canadian Jewish Chronicle summarized the entire debate point-by-point, and even though it occurred nearly forty years ago, Toynbee's criticism of Israel sounds exactly the same as those of today's critics - except that Toynbee actually had some regard for the truth. Herzog's successful counter- arguments apply today as well as they did then.

Here is their description of the debate:

Professor Arnold Toynbee and Israel`s Ambassador to Canada, Yaakov Herzog, met in debate at Hillel House on Tuesday, January 31 at noon. At issue were the contentions which Dr. Toynbee had put forth in answer to the student body at an informal session held there last week.

During the course of his observations. Dr. Toynbee had compared the Israeli treatment of the Arabs during the War for Independence in 1948 with that which the Nazis had done to the Jewish people. He also questioned the legal right of the establishment of the Israeli state in a territory which was predominantly Arab.

Ambassador Herzog began addressing himself to the initial issue raised by Professor Toynbee. This point of view he had initially expressed in a book published in l954 wherein he made the comparison between the treatment of the Jews by the Nazis and the manner in which the Israelis dealt with the Arabs during the course of the Arab war to frustrate the United Nations’ decision to partition mandated-Palestine into Jewish and Arab states.

At the very outset, Dr. Toynbee audibly agreed with the Ambassador that, in question of magnitude between the between these two events, there was no possible comparison. The Ambassador in turn, agreed with the point of view which Dr. Toynbee had put forth....that the answer to the human dilemma [between] the preservation of man or the destruction of the race lies in the willingness to take a moral leap which must oome from a deep sense of moral commitment.

‘What was the exact situation in newly-partitioned Palestine? Mr. Herrog asked. With the announcement of the United Nations decision in 1947, Radio Cairo promised a war of extermination and massacre. Even before the actual partition took place, vicious attacks on the Jewish settlement had become the order of the day. Inevitably, in every struggle, individual groups of military have been guilty of atrocities towards civilians. That this was never the attitude of the Israeli people has been fully established by subsequent history, the Ambassador  continued. "We resisted in self- defence.' But the moment the war was at an end, the 200,000 Arabs within the country were fully integrated into the life and economy and enjoy full and equal privileges with all other citizens of the state.

Professor Toynbee agreed, in his address, with the Ambassador that in magnitude. there was a profound distinction between what happened to the Jews under Nazi control and the treatment accorded the Arabs. While insisting that in essence, the extensiveness of an atrocity is not
the determining factor, he conceded that this action was probably taken by military forces representing independent groups rather than by the regular forces. But what about the occupation of Arab-owned property?

Ambassador Herzog pointed out that 70 per cent of the land occupied hy the Israelis had not been privately owned. These were crown lands under Turkish control and with the establishment of the mandate, the rights were assumed by the British government. He also underscored Israel's constant willingness since the armistice to engage in definite negotiations promising full  compensation to the former owners. These had fled from Palestine in response to the radio urgings from Egypt to leave during hostilities in order to return with the victorious Arabs.

If we are to think in humanitarian and moral terms, the Ambassador asked, how can we justify the action of the Arab states in putting the refugee problem in a political and demagogic framework? 
Dr. Toynbee admitted that he, too, had asked the same question of Arab leaders and that he roundly condemned their refusal to participate in the resettlement of their fellow-countrymen who are now in camps within their borders. At the same time he underscored his conviction that the continuing displacement of the Arab refugees remains a grave moral issue.

To this, the Ambassador responded in practical tems. The Israelis have been willing since the
close of the fighting to negotiate a settlement including full compensation to those who left property and home behind. Thus far, the governments involved have adamantly refused to do anything about it. Furthermore, is it good political logic to ask Israel to take back peoples who left with the expectation to return with conquering, victorious armies and, who have, for the ensuing years, lived with the notion of hatred and revenge? To admit these peoples is tantamount to national suicide. ‘Is this to be expected of any state?

Finally. Mr. Herzog raised thc controversial issue of Professor Toynbee's reference to the Jewish people in terms of a “fossilized civilization." The Professor explained that he had merely applied this term in want of a more appropriate word fof description to indicate those civilizations which, while continuing to live, had temporarily ceased to function. "A fossil doesn`t die," the Ambassador objected. “but also doesn`t live." That this is not applicable to the Jewish c1vilization, he offered these distinct points in evidence. A civilization has survived which would be acceptable today to the very men responsible for its creation these two millenia ago. A national existence has been reborn. There has been an ingathering of peoples from seventy lands who have discovered spontaneously a common cultural link, that has assumed democratic forms in keeping with the best of western traditions and the only nation in the Middle East to have attained this stature. Finally, its own technological advancement has been a source of help and guidance to a great number of newly-formed states. This, he concluded. was ample proof that the Jewish civilization is not to be included in a fossil-labelled category.

The debate, which at the outset assumed the form of a high-level dialogue, concluded on the same cordial note, with expression; of good-fellowship on the part of both participants.
At least one newspaper, the Ottawa Citizen, agreed that Herzog's arguments won the day:

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